Chairman Senate committee on interior, Senator Atiku Abubakar Bagudu ( Kebbi PDP) in these interview with senate correspondents said this is not entirely correct. He also gave insights into some prison reforms. EDEGBE ODEMWINGIE and JONATHAN NDA - ISAIAH were there for LEADERSHIP
As a Chairman, Senate Committee on Interior, what is your committee doing together with the Minister of Interior to ensure that our borders are well tightened, given the current security challenges Nigeria is facing?
Well, there are two elements in internal security management that are unique in Nigeria and I will say, reflect on poor institutional arrangement. The Ministry of Internal Affairs otherwise known as Interior ordinarily, is supposed to be the coordinating agency for internal security. But in Nigeria, agencies like the Police, the Customs Service and the NSS Office play a bigger role in internal security unlike what you have in countries like the US where you have the Homeland security into everything. But having said that, the institutions that are still within the Ministry of Internal Affairs are the Nigeria Immigration Service, Nigeria Prisons Service, the Nigeria Security and Civil Defence Corps and to a latter extent, the Nigeria Fire Service. They are playing different roles that reflect the national security, particularly, people who are in the Nigeria Immigration Service. They interact with border communities and the last time we were on oversight, we discovered that in the last three years, the Nigeria Immigration Service has lost over 400 personnel to the current security challenges. So, I think the casualties figure might rank pari passu with other agencies involved in internal security. Apart from their increasing roles in the security challenges, they are also playing a very big role in pipeline protection which is a very significant area that is affecting the national economic life.
The same thing with Nigeria Prisons Service, we have had eleven prison outbreaks in the country in recent time, most of them related to the current security challenges. Again, because of the nature of the prison officers who are poorly armed because of what I have said-the institutional arrangement, find themselves facing fire from a very armed people. So, in a nutshell, the agencies in the ministry are playing very great roles in internal security. But yet, the policy framework that should make the ministry the coordinating body for domestic security is still absent and we are working towards that.
Most of the agencies in the Ministry of Internal Affairs were engaged in the bribe-for-job allegation, a development that the Senate mandated your committee to probe. How far have you as a committee gone in this issue, sir?
I moved the motion to investigate employment practices in many government agencies because we have many men and women out there who feel they are not being given the chance for employment and the pressures are enormous. The Senate, in its wisdom, set up a Committee on Establishment to investigate and the investigation is going on now. The report is yet to be tabled, but from what one read in the submissions made by different agencies to the public hearing, it went a long way to confirm the suggestion that there might be some irregularities in the way some employments are carried out in most government agencies.
Over the years, there have been series of programmes on prison decongestion but at the end of the day, nothing much is being done. Till today, there are still cries that the prisons around the country are not enough compared to a number of inmates in them. The Senate attempted a move to solving this problem by voting last time that it be moved from exclusive legislative list to concurrent list but the development suffered a setback following insufficient votes to support the argument. Now, in your position as Chairman of the Senate Committee on Interior, don’t you think that was the right way to solving the problem?
I don’t think so, because the failure of the attempt to amend the constitution reflected the same fear that some people have with the formation of state police. Those who spoke against it noted that the prisons service is an armed bearing body and by allowing it, state governments will start buying arms just as they will do if the state police is allowed but beyond that, I don’t think it is right to say that Nigeria has not done well with prisons decongestion because our prison population, per capital is low and we have to thank God for that. We just have to pray that crimes do not go up so that we have less people in prisons. The Nigeria prison population is a little bit under 55,000 and about 38,000 or so are awaiting detainees, so the convicts’ population is less than 20,000 which it’s low. The US for instance, have over 20 million people under lock and keys. We don’t want a situation like that here, so let the cumulative efforts reflect the forgiving nature of our institutions-the church, the mosque, religious leaders, individuals well placed in the society should play mediating roles in the society that will not lead to the court system thereby leading to imprisonment. The higher number of people in prisons, like I said, is awaiting trial detained.
That is a structural problem, because in Nigeria, one somebody is taken to a court, and the court orders that he be detained in prison, if he is unable to meet his bail condition, if the prosecutors are unable to prosecute him on time, he will remain in prison until such a time that it is decided. And then, we have the problem of completion of investigation. Police officers in Nigeria are responsible for investigation in most of the cases, we have little to do like the EFCC and ICPC. The bulk of the cases are investigated by the police, sometimes, they police will tell you that they have their own challenges, sometimes in the midst of an investigation, the police officer is being transferred, sometimes, the investigation is lost and sometimes, the police officer is not available and unfortunately, the poor person who is in detention remains there longer than necessary. But the National Assembly has been addressing this issue and amendment has been put in place. The Nigeria Prisons Reform Bill that has been passed makes it mandatory for the Comptroller General of Prisons to provide information on a monthly basis to all the Chief judges of the 36 states and the FCT on all the awaiting trials and that all those who have stayed in prisons longer than the sentences for the offences that they would have been jailed are entitled to be released.
What is the agency responsible for internal security and safety in the Fire Service? Because the facilities in that sector are nothing to write home about and these have always been blamed on poor budgetary allocation.
I think more than budgetary issue, there was a fundamental issue in 2007 where a policy was brought in to say that the Federal Fire Service should be a regulatory agency, that it should regulate the creation of fire services by state and local governments. The separation of power and incidences of fire and emergency services make it very untenable for us to have very dominant federal fire service. So, I think within the framework of the Nigeria Fire Service being a regulator, there is an ample opportunity to help in the creation of fire services across the country by states and local government and that will be more effective for the need of the nation. What we did during our oversight in the last three weeks ago, at the fire service, we challenged the management of the fire service to pay attention to the development of that regulatory agency.
Back to the issue of the Nigeria Prisons, how do you think the problems confronting it can be resolved?
First, you address it by giving more arms to the Prisons Service and two, you recognize the fact that Prisons Service is an essential elements of the security apparatus. It is not secondary to any other institution.
It’s been observed that most of our internal security problems have been as a result of activities of foreigners, some of who migrate illegally to Nigeria due largely to its porous borders, what is your committee doing to tackle this issue?
My take on the view that foreigners are the cause of security challenges in our country is a little bit, incorrect. But what happens is that whenever you have security challenge and you have free entry and exit of foreigners, particularly from neighboring countries, it might complicate your ability to deal with the security challenge. Yet, our border with the Cameroon in the North East, has always been a problem because Chad which apart from Lake Chad Basin, we don’t have any land border with, has been at war for over the last 50 years. Thereby, the Chadians coming to the North East are well armed and they know how to use fire arms and beginning from the 1980s, there have always been allegations that there are criminal activities, particularly the robberies in the North East, has a lot of Chadians involvement in it. But having said that, coming back to your question, as to what we can do as a nation to arrest this, I think there are two issues and complications. First, we are members of the ECOWAS group of nations and we are committed in the free entry and exit by the ECOWAS nationals and therefore even if we seal our borders, we can’t stop members of ECOWAS countries from coming in and out of Nigeria. Secondly, it will be a very herculean undertaking to think of building up or fencing 4,000 miles -long border. The good thing is that technology has revolutionalise the way things are done. The cost of monitoring individuals is coming down, monitoring the an entire area is coming down, so I believe that with increase use of modern technologies and efficient deployment of personnel, we can achieve more with less spending.
Apart from being a former lecturer at the University of Sokoto, you were the last Senate Committee Chairman on Education, with your experience in the education field, what do you think is the way out in the face of on-going strike by ASUU over certain disagreement with the Federal Government?
I think the best thing is for the all parties at all times to be knowledgeable in their approach. About two years ago, the president, I am not holding brief for him, he held a Presidential Summit on Education and he was there all the time for about 48 hours. He is an academic, the Minister of Education is an academic and I am sure that that makes it a bit easy for them personality wise, to support any measure that can reposition the Nigeria educational sector. The two committees of the national Assembly, at all times, have been populated with people who were at one time or the other academic or comrades and therefore they should be able to relate with ASUU and find the way ASUU feels. What is happening is that if there is a resources constraint and sometimes, people who observe national event realize that no sector is going to have as much as it needs from the federal funding, it just have to come to terms. Sometimes, it is easy for somebody who is involved in appropriation to think that you can provide more money for me or can provide as much money as I want. ASUU is not playing irresponsibly, they are saying that we had an agreement with government and therefore the government must respect the agreement. From my interaction with senior government officials particularly President Goodluck Jonathan, the Minister of Education and the Secretary to Government of the Federation, I did not see any lack of intention on their parts to address or shy away from the agreement but there are practical problems and challenges. For example, the President cannot give anybody 100 billion just to come to the National Assembly, it has to be put in the appropriation and the sooner we get our universities to be truly autonomous the better, and ASUU also has to come to term with that. Some universities should better than the others. We want universities that can compete with each other so that we can always measure up.
What is the level of negotiation over the transfer of Nigerians serving in foreign prisons?
There is a proposal by the British government where they wanted us to amend the transfer of convicts law because prisoners in some commonwealth countries and Nigerians serving in some commonwealth countries under the commonwealth agreement can apply to come back to their home countries to serve their prison sentences. But the British government wanted us to remove consent such that if on the other hand, those governments or the British government wants to transfer a Nigerian convict to Nigeria, they should be able to do so with or without its consent and this is before the National Assembly. Beyond that, we have been considering bilateral negotiation such that Nigerians incarcerated abroad can come back to Nigeria and serve their sentences and it has been happening even though the number of those coming in are very few. This will be achieved if the laws are amended.
How is your feeling given that the Senate as an institution is being attacked in certain circles, especially in the social media over its alleged support for child marriage in Nigeria?
Just like you, I have been following events in the press, what saddens me is how many people that I will ordinarily respect their opinion, argued devoid of the facts. The elements that brought this forum is the renunciation of citizenship and it provided that a Nigerian of full age can renounce his citizenship and it went ahead to explain what it meant by full age and it said (a) 18 years and above and (b),any woman who is married. That is what is in the Nigerian constitution as it is today, and there was an attempt to remove the second element which relates to a woman who is married and being of full age. And that failed, I was one of those who voted against the change. What I read in the media is a total misrepresentation because people now took it to say that the Senate has considered child marriage and that is not correct and that is not true. Marriage in Nigeria is regulated by the Marriage Act, the Matrimonial Clauses Act and the various communities’ laws which are recognized by the constitution including Islamic laws.
The Tivs have their own communal laws just like the Idomas. If you go to the Ibo speaking part of the country, you will see their own communal laws. In all these communal laws, what do you have as in definition of marriage? I don’t want to answer the question because I don’t want to go into the controversy of marriage because that is not what we voted for. We did not vote to lower the standard, if there is one or the threshold for which somebody can marry. But I am just using this opportunity to say that for anybody who is interested in that aspect, you have to look at all the customary laws in Nigeria for guidance for which different Nigerian cultures allowed as marriageable age. Beyond that, you can also check what is happening around the world. In most places around the world, marriage just below the age of 18 years is allowed with parental consent. I am not saying that it is right for saying that it is allowed. So, I am worried that the debate on the renunciation of citizenship has been transformed into a debate for a child marriage and people like me who voted on the issue of renunciation have been drawn into a debate for which we have not been given an opportunity to state our views because if the Senate is debating the issue of child marriage, I will have an opportunity to say what I know and express my view. But that was not what we discussed and that was not what I voted for.
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